Tibet Not Always Part of China: Chinese Historian

In an article titled "How Big was the Ancient China", Fudan professor Ge Jianxiong:-

(In translation) ... How big was the 8th-century "China"?  If "China" means the land of the Tang Dynasty, the Qinghai-Tibetan Plateau, which was ruled by Tubo/Tufan (吐蕃), does not count.  Tubo/Tufan was a sovereignty independent of the Tang Dynasty.  At least it was not administered by the Tang Dynasty.  Otherwise, there would have been no need for Tang Taizong to marry Princess Wencheng to the Tibetan king; there would have been no need to erect the Tang-Tubo/Tufan alliance tablet.  It would be a defiance of history if we claim that since the Tang Dynasty Tibet has always been a part of China - the fact that the Qinghai-Tibetan Plateau subsequently became a part of the Chinese dynasties does not substantiate such a claim ...

The article is published on the China Review magazine and syndicated to China's biggest internet portals like 163 and QQ.  It is quite remarkable since the official stance is that Tibet has historically always been an inalienable part of China (西藏自古以来就是中国不可分割的一部分) (see e.g. a recent People's Daily report).

Comments

[Tenzin Jamphel]

I am a pure Tibetan and i am proud of it. We have our own National flag,Anthem,Language,Dress,Tradition,Food and everything is different from Chinese. How can you even think of Tibet is part of China. Shame on those people who say this. Even if you still tell like this,I can add that I and all Tibetans are not willing to be part of China untill we die. Long live Dalai Lama, Free Tibet.

[Kalsang Tsomo]

If Tibet is a part of China, then why can't the Tibetans speak and understand Chinese language which is the main witness and evidence of one's own culture and identidy? why the script of written language is so different to each other? Why great king of called Songtsen-Ganpo in 7th Century, could sent his most intellegent minister Gar-Tong-Tsen to China to take part in the test to win the hand of Princess Wencheng and ultimately he won the princess as Tibet king's queen? Indeed there are piles of old history to narrate to prove that Tibet is not a part of China. Tibet is being forced to become the part of china since the invasion led by Mao!! and forced the Tibetan people into Exile in India in 1959. "History is the Truth and truth always prevails"!!!! One more question, if china feels that Tibetans are Chinese as they claim Tibet nation as its part, then why Chinese people are using military force to kill many Tibetans, why many imprisoned? why Panchen Lama is kidnnaped? Why can't Tulku Tenzin Delek be released? There are so many questions full of whys to follow? Why they are torturing Tibetan people if they really feel Tibet its part. I am sure, There is no nation torturing one's own country men even if the governmemnt can't help!! So, these are the few of the many questions!!

and of course the answers are there, but you're just too blinded by zeal and ideaology to see it.

First of all the quote from the article is taken out of context. I would suggest that those who are interested in the actual facts and not just flag waving counter arguments read the entire article.

As to the almost rhetorical questions of Mr. Tsomo, all I can say is this:

historical relevances aside, what are you actually going to do? Keep bitching until the Lama dies? That really is your only option, isn't it? It's frustrating to see a close cultural relative to have such a technoloigical lead over you, and to see your own identity marginalized. But fear not, this is human evolution. The weak and the backward decays and their corpse feed the strong and the advanced.

Also, have you ever heard of the phrase: "History is written by the victors"?

bitching??...hey ass wipe watch wat chu say because u been lucky that the dalai lama has taught us non-violence is the way but if he's gone then i guess ur screwed and i guess u dont want a whole another jihad on ur hand??...and yea keep making those smart remarks and false bullshit brain washed statements and we'll see anyways come see me if u got a fcuking probelm motherfcuker and we'll get this shit resolved. i know u a fcuking pussy ass chink faggot behind ya computer typing up garbage bullshit well me and my peoples have suffered long enough and theres something called "karma" well u wouldnt know abt it u atheist biotch...our movement for a free tibet or better yet a free tibet where our brothers and sisters can live in peace and harmony w/o being oppresed by the fcuking communist chinese government as u can see we oppose and despise the government and not the people but then again who ever is against our movement of human rights is a probelm and not a resolution and all i can say is u got yours coming...and this i swear on all my fallen brothers and sisters who have died plzz dont respond bac cuz i dont like this whole internet arguing...so plzz spare ur energy and yea if ya got a probelm??...come see mee...we aint talking no more we going have a real probelm....recognize the truth

[Palden Tensin]

When a person writes the way you do, it doesn’t attract people to your argument but rather gives a bad personality to Tibetans and Buddhists. If you want people to follow you, then lead by example.

[Juikuo]

Maps dated few thousands back indicated clearly the Tibet has been part of China. Now, obviousely, the definition of a nation is not exactly the same, or as clear as the contemporaty definition. But indeed Tibet has historically been part of China at least during some dynasties. It's also true that Tibetan culture is different than the Han culture (one of the five main races in China - Han, Manchurian, Mongolian, Muslim, and Tibetan). That does not mean Tibet must then be an independent nation. Another obvious fact is that the Western powers still are very interested, NOT in true Tibetan independence, but really in weakening China's emerging power, and eventually hoping to ahieve the goal of making Tibet a pupet governement controlled by the Western poweres!

[Beki]

There are many different ethnic groups in China, there are 56 minority groups. They all have different cultures, they all speak different languages.

I honestly do not feel it is relevant whether or not China has a historial claim on Tibet - Xizang. Because, it does not solve this problem.

What is the problem?? Many people say blindly, and with ignorance, that 'Tibet' should be 'free', i.e. thinking that making a country politically independent will solve any of the real issues at hand.

The issues that people are generally upset by regarding Tibet, lie in the roots or racism (by the Han Chinese against the Tibetan Chinese), by the lack of religious freedom (religion is allowed, Buddhism is a recognized religion, and if the followers don't act in ways that oppose the government, then they are left alone).

The Chinese government does not oppose religious followers, but this relatively new and unstable nation aims to control them so a degree of stability can be maintained. This is to prevent religion attacking the government (actions from which only more misery arises), but not to prevent the freedom of religious expression. China is opening up slowly, giving the people time to adapt to the radically different environment.

As for racisim, hostility, dividing a country is not the method to deal with this. We study history in school, so that we can learn from the past, so that we do not repeat the same mistakes. In this circumstances, it is important to consider the huge population of non-Tibetan Chinese that lives in 'Tibet', and the many more Tibetans that live outside of 'Tibet'. It is important to consider these, with a reflection on the decolonization of India.

Fearing religious persecution and racism, India was partitioned into what is current day India, Bangledesh and Pakistan. The reason - the demographic spread and concentration of the two religious groups, Hindus and Muslims. What this resulted in is more intense religious persecution and racism in those areas, terrible relations between those two countries, and wars. However, these are only later developments. The immediate repurcussions is the relocation of millions of people into their respective religious territory out of fear.

As the Dalai Lama said, ""Tibet is a part of the People's Republic of China. It is an autonomous region of the People's Republic of China. Tibetan culture and Buddhism are part of Chinese culture. Many young Chinese like Tibetan culture as a tradition of China.""

It is true the Chinese government should focus more on the Western Chinese provinces, and it has - efforts cannot be denied. However, any benefit that would come from having an indepdendent Tibet would be severely limited.

[Agus]

It is the Chinese government who has poured in billions of dollars to develop Tibet and eleviated Tibetans from extreme poverty. Others like Richard Gere and western nations only paid lip service. Nobody truly cares about the Tibetans like the Chinese government.

If Tibetans don't consider themselves to be citizens of the People's Republic of China, then they should leave Tibet and go somewhere else! What ungrateful lazy bums.

If they want to stay in Tibet and achieve better lives; they should go to school, study hard like the Han Chinese, and work hard like the Han Chinese. The Chinese government has provided them with lots of incentives and opportunities. It's up to them to reap them. But don't expect to pray all day yet make the same income as the Han Chinese.

Tibet is part of China. Get over it !!!

[Free Tibet]

I hate all of you foreigners, whoever Chinese or Amarican. If you come to Tibet, I will kill you all!

[anti-free-tibet]

Tibet is and will always be a part of China. people have been brain-washed by Western media.. dalai lama is a tool used by the western powers.

[anti-free-tibet]

TIBET IS and will always be a part of China. Dalai lama is just a tool used by the Western powers.

[Joy Fung]

I totally agree the last comment that Tibet has been, is and will always be part of China.

It is a joke that Dalai Lama won the 1989 Nobel Peace Price because he had failed violent attempt in 1959.

Who are those Tibetans who benefit from Tibet's separation from China? The slave drivers! I believe the former slaves will not want to go back to the old Dalai Lama rule and live miserably again!!!

[Joy Fung]

Talking about the human rights? Where were the human rights under the slavery rules? The liberation of the slaves was the best thing happened to Tibetans, of course not the slave drivers!

Tibet will never be allowed to separate from China, just like California will never be allowed to be separated from the US and Quebec will never be allowed to be separated from Canada!!!

[Suzie]

The Chinese are GREEDY. Leave the Tibetans be in peace. It was peaceful before China invaded.

[Suzie]

Further, the Chinese are Communists and the Tibetans are not.

[Suzie]

not count. Tubo/Tufan was a sovereignty independent of the Tang Dynasty. At least it was not administered by the Tang Dynasty. Otherwise, there would have been no need for Tang Taizong to marry Princess Wencheng to the Tibetan king; there would have been no need to erect the Tang-Tubo/Tufan alliance tablet. It would be a defiance of history if we claim that since the Tang Dynasty Tibet has always been a part of China - the fact that the Qinghai-Tibetan Plateau subsequently became a part of the Chinese dynasties does not substantiate such a claim ...

Free Iraq! End American occupation! I implore you: how long must the Iraqi people suffer? Iraq was never a part of America's terrorist enemies. The Iraqis were much better off with the torturing American soldiers.

correction: *without American soldiers*

[what]

talk about human rights. why no one in western protest for Palestinian? They r not human? WHY ur gov still selling weapons to Israel? Oh yeah, rite u guys are good side. Everyone else who doesn't want kiss ur ass is terrorist.

If u think Chinese gov is the only gov brainwash their ppl. Than u R wrong! Every gov brainwash their ppl including urs.

I agree Chinese gov killed innocent ppl(include Han and other ethic chinese Tibetan wasn't only victim)But that happened 20 or more years ago.

Currently with the economic improvement and up coming Olypics such thing doesn't happen anymore.

If u still think chinese gov killing their ppl but made ur conclusion by whatching the reports from the western point of view AND tibet exile ONLY.
than pls travel to China and live with Tibetan there 4 a while experience real china urself.

than pls travel to China and live with Tibetan there 4 a while experience real china urself....

nice suggestion...only if the chinese government will ALLOW it at all. Even just journalists are barred from entering Tibet. How can folks think there is nothing to hide if there isn't free access to talk to people in Tibet itself.

than pls travel to China and live with Tibetan there 4 a while experience real china urself....

nice suggestion...only if the chinese government will ALLOW it at all. Even just journalists are barred from entering Tibet. How can folks think there is nothing to hide if there isn't free access to talk to people in Tibet itself.

Cao Chang-Ching* argues that a detailed look at the history of Tibetan-Chinese relations throws up irrefutable proof of the independent historical development of Tibet.

THE Chinese government on both sides of the Taiwan Straits hold opposing political views on most issues, often resorting to tit for tat policies and verbal attacks. On the Tibet issue, however, the two sides cling to the same viewpoint: both claim Chinese sovereignty over Tibet, emphasizing that Tibet has been a part of China since ancient times.

Over the past several decades, these official viewpoints have been instilled in the Chinese people by means of large scale propaganda campaigns waged by the Beijing and Taiwan governments. As a result of this brainwashing, the majority of the Chinese people have lost the ability to discover the truth. However, through a brief review of Chinese history, we can clearly see that Tibet was never a part of China until it was invaded and occupied by China in the 1950s.

In the Tang Dynasty, China and Tibet signed a peace treaty, clearly stating their borders and positions. During Song Dynasty, China and Tibet had almost no contact. China's claim to Tibet is based primarily on the assertion that Tibet was once ruled by the Yuan Dynasty (1271-1368). During the Yuan Dynasty, Mongolia occupied most of Asia, includ-ing China, Tibet, Vietnam, and Korea. The Mongolians established a capital on Chinese territory to rule over the conquered lands of their empire. Firstly, if such a military occupation qualifies as historical basis for ownership, it should he made by the Mongolians, not the Chinese. Furthermore, if the fact that Tibet was once ruled by China in this fashion forms a legal basis for their claim on Tibet, why have the Chinese never made the same claim on Vietnam, Korea and other parts of Asia which were annexed and ruled over by the Mongols at the same time? Clearly, it is illogical to only claim Tibetan territory.

Since China's Ming Dynasty had minimal relations with Tibet, the Qing Dynasty(1644-1911) is the only other historical ground for the Chinese to dem-onstrate their claim to Tibet. However, unbiased history books do not substan-tiate this claim.

It is true that the Qing Empire had relations with Tibet. Upon the request of the Dalai Lama, the Qing military entered Tibet four times to help settle internal rebellions and to defeat external invasions. However, it is clearly groundless for the Chinese to claim ownership of Tibet because the Qing Army helped to maintain stability in the region. This is as absurd as the United States claiming rule over Kuwait just because the U.S. army helped defeat the Iraqi invad-ers.

Later, an "Imperial Resident in Tibet" was sent by the Qing Emperor as a special envoy to aid Tibet with administrative works. Due to their admiration for the Dalai Lama's spiritual power, the Qing Emperors intended to help strengthen Tibet. However, all regulations and statutes clearly state that the Dalai Lama and the Resident in Tibet had equal positions and seniority, and that important matters should "be solved after the consultation made by and between the Dalai Lama and the Resident." The Dalai Lama and the Qing Emperor had reciprocal seniority during that time period. If Tibet was one of the Empire's provinces, the right of the Emperor's envoy would have been greater than that of the Dalai Lama.

Several historical examples clearly demonstrate the equality of the Dalai Lama and the Qing emperor. In 1632, the Qing Emperor, Shunzhi, invited the Fifth Dalai Lama for a friendly visit to China. Upon the Dalai Lama's arrival, the Em-peror himself went as far as 20 kilometers out of the capital to meet him. The Emperor would never have met a leader of his subordinate territory with such an honourable, grand rite. Historical records show that there had never been an em-peror to do so, not even to meet a king of a foreign country. Furthermore, in the book, A Biography of Dalai Lama, written by Ya Hanzhang, a Chinese expert on Tibet, and published by the official Chinese publishing house, there are prints of two mural paintings depicting Emperor Shunzhi and the Fifth Dalai Lama, and Empress Dowager Ci Xi and the Thirteenth Dalai Lama sitting side by side on the throne. This friendly relationship lasted almost 260 years through the whole period of the Qing Dynasty.

After the deaths of Emperor Guangxu and Empress Dowager Ci Xi, the Qing army took over Lhasa by force and soon occupied all of Tibet. But they were driven out by Tibetans in less than three years. In 1913, the Thirteenth Dalai Lama clearly announced: "Tibet is an independent country."

During the period of the Republic of China (1911-1949), President Chang Kai-shek twice sent his special envoys to Lhasa to persuade the Tibetans to become subjects of the Republic. But the Tibetan leaders never consented. In 1990 a total of 478 correspondences between China and the Tibetan government were published in Beijing, clearly demonstrating that Tibet was an independent country during the time of the Republic of China.

The rest of Tibetan-Chinese history is simple. In 1951 the Chinese Army took over Tibet by forcing a delegation from the Tibetan government to sign the so-called "Seventeen-Article Agreement" The Tibetan government signed this treaty under duress. Later in 1959 the Dalai Lama and the Tibetan government denounced the agreement.

If Tibet had always been a part of China, why did the Chinese insist on the signing on this agreement? Why haven't the similar agreement been signed with Xinjiang Uygur Autono-mous Region and the Three Provinces in the Northeast, the then "Manchukuo"? The "Seventeen-Article Agreement" has been used to prove China's rule over Tibet since its signing. Yet this clearly demonstrates that before the Agreement, China did not have a valid claim to Tibet.

Although I was a journalist in China, I did not know the above mentioned historical facts until I came to the United States. Like my fellow Chinese, I had always thought that Tibet was a part of China. All of my knowledge concerning the Tibetan situation has been based on the official Chinese history texts, newspapers, books, and movies. It was only after coming to the USA and reading unbiased history books that I began to understand the truth about Tibet.

The Chinese should pay due heed to the reality of the situation in Tibet today. Since the Chinese occupation of Tibet, the human rights of the Tibetan people have been wantonly trampled upon. Furthermore, the Tibetan people are systematically discriminated against and persecuted by the Chinese colonialists.

[Bob]

Tibet has not "always been a part of China"... there are maps that indicate a seperate state in the 800's and it isn't until the 1940's that China even stated that Tibet was a Chinese province.

In the succession of dynastic powers in China, the Chinese have been good at rewritting history to obliterate or otherwise marginalize the successes and history of prior dynasties. Modern China and the Communist Party continue this cultural trend.

China is occupying and colonizing Tibet... rather, the Han Chinese are....

Do you know chinese history?
-----Me, I don't believe!

Tibet is always a part of China!
Always!
Before, now and future!

Let me tell you the truth, real tibetans who are living in Tibet now are typical Chinese. They do speak Chinese. We share the same language, the same food. I saw the one at the top used Chinese characters(吐蕃） in his/her translation. This implies he/or she used to be a Chinese. I have to say, he/she is a pathetic tool which is used by someone else against our country. If you want to be independent from your motherland, please find somewhere else to yell and stop disturbing our normal life in China. We are not weak, and we have a clear mind. The most important thing is that there are billions of people in China, and they are all patriotic. Please deal with that.
By the way, anyone who wants to have a visit to China is welcome. I am pretty sure that you will be free to go in or out of every province in China. Those liars have not been back home for more than half a century. So please do not blame them for their ignorance, since they were not well educated 50 years ago, and they really do not know what is going on in China nowadays!